Search In Podcast Apps with Mark Steadman

Brett Johnson:

: 00:00:02

This is a Note To Future Me.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:00:04

Hi, this is Brett Johnson, your host and the owner of Circle270Media Podcast Consultants.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:00:10

How do people find your podcast and apps?

Brett Johnson:

: 00:00:12

Should you put your guests name in your episode title?

Brett Johnson:

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Do podcast apps, use your podcast description to help people find new shows?

Brett Johnson:

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Which apps search what information you provide in your RSS feed.

Brett Johnson:

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In a three week experiment, Mark Steadman from podcast STUDIO ORIGIN, cataloged what

Brett Johnson:

: 00:00:31

every big podcast app indexes, and how to help listeners find your podcast.

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This full article is available on podnews.net.

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I have a link to that article in the podcast show notes.

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I would advise that you read the article prior to this interview, but you can listen to

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the article, listen to the interview and then read the article afterwards.

Brett Johnson:

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Either way, you're going to get some great information from Mark about his experiment,

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his research project, as it were, about how podcasts apps help people find new podcast

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episodes.

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New podcasts to listen to, or how they don't.

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Mark works with best selling authors, entrepreneurs, artists and celebrities.

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His work has been highlighted by the BBC and he presented the Comedy Award at the

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Inaugural British Podcast Awards in 2017.

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He founded the podcast hosting company, Podiant in 2016.

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Coding every line, writing every blog post, and in the beginning replying to every support

Brett Johnson:

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email himself. He's helped individuals, organizations and commercial radio stations

Brett Johnson:

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launch their audio presences online and has been consistently producing podcasts since

Brett Johnson:

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2008. He sold his hosting business in the spring of 2021 and now spends his time

Brett Johnson:

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exclusively helping podcasters get results on their own terms.

Brett Johnson:

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I'm sure him selling his business has helped him open up some time to do interviews about

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this article, so I was very happy when I contacted him that he sent an email back saying,

Brett Johnson:

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great, let's talk, get on my calendar, and here we got it done.

Brett Johnson:

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This interview really solidified what his research and his experiment did prove and

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didn't prove in regards to what podcast apps do for podcasters.

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I think the one takeaway that you will realize after reading the article and listening to

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this episode is, that the findability piece is all on our shoulders.

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We cannot rely on podcast apps.

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We cannot rely on social media.

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We have to do the work ourselves.

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It really does come down to understanding how different mediums search and index, and

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give those that are searching that information.

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This is a really good article to read about that, and this interview highlights a lot of

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great stuff from the article.

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I hope you enjoy. I hope you learn a little bit.

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I know I did.

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I think everything from this article and this interview you can take and start producing

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even better podcast's for search your next episode.

Brett Johnson:

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Mark, first I want to thank you and James Cridland, editor of Podnews and a radio

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futurist, for doing some heavy lifting with your research on podcast app search.

Brett Johnson:

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The article you wrote for Podnews is concise and full of great information.

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So much so I wanted to contact you to see if you might be willing to be a guest on my

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podcast to give some highlights of what you and James discovered and what we as

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podcasters should do, starting with our next episode.

Brett Johnson:

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Mark, thanks for taking some time to be with me today.

Mark Steadman:

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It's a real pleasure. Thank you.

Brett Johnson:

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What stirred your interest in doing this podcast app search experiment?

Mark Steadman:

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It all started when I was listening to an episode of The Feed, the Libsyn podcast, and

Mark Steadman:

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they were talking about the things that appear in search for, I can't remember what it

Mark Steadman:

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was. It was a user submitted question, I think for Libsyn, and it was about their content

Mark Steadman:

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not appearing when people searched and about descriptions and things like that, and Rob

Mark Steadman:

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started talking about the various things that Apple Podcasts indexed.

Mark Steadman:

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I realized I hadn't really thought about it.

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There were a couple of things that I sort of vaguely think I knew.

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With anything that's self taught, there's always going to be gaps in your knowledge.

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There's always going to be stuff. It doesn't matter if you could tell yourself as being

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any kind of podcast, quote unquote, guru, there's always going to be stuff that you don't

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know. I'm certainly not touting myself as a guru, but, I work with other podcasters and

Mark Steadman:

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try and help them. I started to think actually, I don't know definitively what Apple

Mark Steadman:

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Podcast is indexing.

Mark Steadman:

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I've got this information from Robert Libsyn but, okay well that's one directory.

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I know we've got all of these apps that are powered by the Apple Podcasts directory and

Mark Steadman:

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fewer and fewer now as we see more things like the Podcast Index and Spotify, and other

Mark Steadman:

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apps maintain their own indexes, but it started me thinking, presumably different apps

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have different rules for what's going to be indexed.

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So I thought, well, yeah, this would be a really interesting thing to look at and

Mark Steadman:

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actually do a bit of a [INAUDIBLE] and do some research and find out, are all apps

Mark Steadman:

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indexing information the same?

Mark Steadman:

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What data is being pulled in from our feed, and how is it being utilized?

Mark Steadman:

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How is it being exposed and such?

Brett Johnson:

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There's a ton of talk about what to include and what not include, tons of it.

Brett Johnson:

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To me, it always seemed as though it might be more of a this is a best practice you never

Brett Johnson:

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know when they might start looking at this piece, just include it.

Brett Johnson:

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We'll put the field in there, just do it sort of stuff.

Mark Steadman:

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Definitely.

Brett Johnson:

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In your experiment, you use the top 14 podcast apps.

Brett Johnson:

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When I saw you include Google Podcast, I thought that might be the wild card on the list,

Brett Johnson:

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quite frankly. From what you saw it wasn't.

Brett Johnson:

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About half, including Google Podcasts, of the podcast app seem to search numerous channel

Brett Johnson:

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level tags. That is the podcast RSS feed as the whole.

Brett Johnson:

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Did you have some pre experiment thoughts about certain podcast players?

Mark Steadman:

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I thought Google would be more.

Mark Steadman:

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I thought it would be better at search.

Mark Steadman:

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It's that simple.

Mark Steadman:

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There's quite a few these apps actually I thought would have a better approach to search.

Mark Steadman:

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Now, one of the things that we haven't talked about and when I've spoken to people about

Mark Steadman:

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this article is, we haven't really touched much on the way search engines work in these

Mark Steadman:

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apps. Now, we used made up words, specifically so that we wouldn't have clashes with

Mark Steadman:

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other things, and we wouldn't end up - we could be really definitive about worrying about

Mark Steadman:

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things like pluralization and potentially being confused with other languages and stuff

Mark Steadman:

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like that. I deliberately just kind of mashed the keys and tried to use often alphabet,

Mark Steadman:

: 00:07:21

tried to use letters from the alphabet that would kind of look like words.

Mark Steadman:

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But, a conversation with a couple of people sort of led me down to thinking about one of

Mark Steadman:

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the issues we do have in search is, things like pluralization, things like alternative

Mark Steadman:

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spellings. For example, if I think about my, one of the shows that I think I mentioned in

Mark Steadman:

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the article, which is a show about The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, if you search

Mark Steadman:

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hitchhiker, you get one type of result.

Mark Steadman:

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If you search hitchhikers without an apostrophe, you get another type of result.

Mark Steadman:

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If you search hitchhiker's with the apostrophe, you get a different set of results.

Mark Steadman:

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That's a problem.

Mark Steadman:

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As a former, in a past life as a former sort of Web engineer, I know what that problem

Mark Steadman:

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is. But I think I was surprised at the number of apps that were addressing that problem,

Mark Steadman:

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which is almost none.

Brett Johnson:

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Yeah, it is interesting, it's almost just get the product out there to do.

Brett Johnson:

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As you mentioned too in the article, were those apps really developed as discoverable,

Brett Johnson:

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findable types of play?

Brett Johnson:

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They do what they do really well.

Brett Johnson:

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They play podcasts, but were they really built to do that?

Brett Johnson:

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Maybe we're asking a bit too much of them?

Mark Steadman:

: 00:08:38

Yeah, absolutely.

Mark Steadman:

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That's why I was a little bit surprised.

Mark Steadman:

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I had a lovely chat with J.J.at GoodPods, because I think there is, with GoodPods

Mark Steadman:

: 00:08:49

specifically, a real opportunity there.

Mark Steadman:

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I think it is much more a discovery engine than it is a player.

Mark Steadman:

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I think I would really like to see search play a better role in that.

Mark Steadman:

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Now, for anyone who builds these apps and works in this space, I know what a hard problem

Mark Steadman:

: 00:09:07

it is, especially given episode level surge, which I'm sure we'll talk about, and sort of

Mark Steadman:

: 00:09:12

how little provision there is for episode wide search.

Mark Steadman:

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I know why that is, because if you think this potentially four million podcasts in the

Mark Steadman:

: 00:09:21

Podcast Index, now think about the number of episodes each one of those has.

Mark Steadman:

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You've got to maintain that database yourself in a searchable way that's mental.

Mark Steadman:

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I get the problem.

Mark Steadman:

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I think I keep giving very long answers to your questions and I'm not entirely sure if

Mark Steadman:

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I'm actually answering them.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:09:37

You're good. No, you're going in exactly the right direction.

Brett Johnson:

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What I'm thinking too is, it seems though, we're addressing that findability.

Brett Johnson:

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I just want to kick that discoverability word off of our lexicon.

Brett Johnson:

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Findability, it seems that lots of apps are building themselves around the findability,

Brett Johnson:

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but they're not great players.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:09:55

Mm-hmm.

Brett Johnson:

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We don't have this middle ground, I just want a really good player that I can at least

Brett Johnson:

: 00:10:01

find some podcasts that are similar to what I'm playing right now.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:10:07

That doesn't even really exist, honestly.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:10:11

No, I think to be honest, what I want to say is, and I'm not in charge of GoodPods and I'm

Mark Steadman:

: 00:10:16

not about to tell them what to do, but if I take an app like GoodPods, or if we imagine

Mark Steadman:

: 00:10:21

Discover Pods has a proper mobile app.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:10:25

I want my podcast player to be one thing, and I want my discovery engine to be another

Mark Steadman:

: 00:10:30

thing. I want the two to be separate, but be able to communicate so that I can hit the

Mark Steadman:

: 00:10:35

plus button and maybe I'll get taken out to, sorry the plus button in Overcast where I'm

Mark Steadman:

: 00:10:40

comfortable listening. I've got things set up the way I want, but then I want to go and

Mark Steadman:

: 00:10:44

find new podcasts and I think, okay, I'm going to go off to GoodPods, or I'm going to go

Mark Steadman:

: 00:10:47

off to Podchaser or somewhere else, and use the player that, just a preview.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:10:52

Just to get a little sense of, here's what people are listen to, I want to hear this give

Mark Steadman:

: 00:10:57

it a shot. Then I want to just hit that button to say, okay, take me back to Overcast.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:11:01

I'm ready to subscribe.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:11:02

Let me subscribe to it in Overcast.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:11:04

I don't think, I personally think that's the way to do it, is that we keep them

Mark Steadman:

: 00:11:09

separate, but people wouldn't be able to own as much of the stack as possible, and that's

Mark Steadman:

: 00:11:14

understandable.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:11:15

That makes sense too, and you describing that scenario is that would be an easy lift.

Brett Johnson:

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You have two companies that do something very well.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:11:23

Why not? Not necessarily merge, but at least work with each other.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:11:28

Just talk to each other.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:11:28

Just talk to each other.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:11:28

Very, very simply, it's code that's already baked into the operating system.

Mark Steadman:

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It's very easy to pass information to, from one place to another to say now bring in this

Mark Steadman:

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resource and show it on screen.

Mark Steadman:

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That's, very simple.

Brett Johnson:

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First you cover in the article the channel level tags, which again telling the audience

Brett Johnson:

: 00:11:48

are tags in the podcast RSS feed that relate to the podcast as a whole.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:11:52

That includes the podcast title, the description, podcast, person, iTunes author, iTunes

Brett Johnson:

: 00:11:58

subtitle and the iTunes owner and keywords.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:12:02

I'll let you read the article, as I mentioned before the podcast, about how each of those

Brett Johnson:

: 00:12:07

play into search.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:12:09

But, what I wanted to ask you, is to talk more about the person tag.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:12:13

That info about who contributes to a podcast, and that's not being used by any search

Brett Johnson:

: 00:12:17

engine you surveyed. You made a comment in the article, that this isn't to suggest the

Brett Johnson:

: 00:12:22

tag has no value.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:12:23

Far from it. Just because the names are being surfaced in search results doesn't mean

Brett Johnson:

: 00:12:27

it's not a great way to link podcasts together.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:12:31

I'd love to see it influence results for guest-based podcasts.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:12:33

Still, early days. Talk a little bit more about that, linking podcasts together.

Brett Johnson:

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What your thought process was there.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:12:40

Back in, I want to say 2013, I started working on a little project that very naively

Mark Steadman:

: 00:12:50

I thought would be really fun, is could I create an RSS feed or a playlist of podcast

Mark Steadman:

: 00:12:57

episodes across any number of podcasts that featured a particular person I like.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:13:03

Back then I was ten years younger.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:13:05

I was gullible.

Mark Steadman:

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I was whatever age I was, and it was Kevin Smith.

Mark Steadman:

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I want to know if Kevin Smith pops up as a guest in a not Kevin Smith podcast, it would be

Mark Steadman:

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cool if I could just automatically subscribe to that.

Mark Steadman:

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The way I did that, was very naively at the time, was just trying to search through the

Mark Steadman:

: 00:13:28

Apple back then, as it was called, the iTunes database, and try and find stuff that way

Mark Steadman:

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and very quickly hit up against the problem of scale with something like that.

Mark Steadman:

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The idea stood, and what I think we're seeing with the likes of Podchaser and to a

Mark Steadman:

: 00:13:45

degree, the Podcast Taxonomy project is this idea of being able to link information

Mark Steadman:

: 00:13:51

together now, so we really can go from, you enjoyed this guest on a show, so you've been

Mark Steadman:

: 00:13:58

subscribed to this particular podcast.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:14:00

Every week they have a new guest, this guest you really dug on this episode.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:14:03

You want to know where else can I hear them?

Mark Steadman:

: 00:14:07

Where else are they cropping up?

Mark Steadman:

: 00:14:08

To be able to go and follow them because they're listed as a creator in Podchaser is

Mark Steadman:

: 00:14:12

amazing. A way of being able to do that in the Oodcast Index as well, to uniquely

Mark Steadman:

: 00:14:17

identify a person, because obviously you can have several John Smiths.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:14:22

But to be able to know the John Smith you're talking about is this person, and to be able

Mark Steadman:

: 00:14:27

then to find all the episodes of any podcast that that person has appeared in, to me, as

Mark Steadman:

: 00:14:32

possibly as a data nerd and an avid podcast listener, that's gold.

Mark Steadman:

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There's so much fun you can have with that.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:14:40

Not just guests of course.

Mark Steadman:

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If you loved the music that was on an episode, and you want to know what else that

Mark Steadman:

: 00:14:47

musician has scored, the sound engineer or whatever, and Podchaser are trying to map out

Mark Steadman:

: 00:14:54

that information and make it accessible.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:14:56

One of the things they hit up against a few years ago, was that, we podcasters are a

Mark Steadman:

: 00:15:04

thirsty bunch. If we find that there is a potential to game the system, to hack the

Mark Steadman:

: 00:15:09

system, to promote something, we'll do it.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:15:12

We'll game a system if we can.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:15:15

They saw that.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:15:18

The people were just saying, every episode had this X number of guests who were not on the

Mark Steadman:

: 00:15:24

episode, but were big draws, because there was no vetting.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:15:28

You could put that information into your RSS feed Podchaser would suck it up and believe

Mark Steadman:

: 00:15:33

it. It didn't take them very long for them to be like, okay, yeah, maybe not then.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:15:39

There are ways that we need to police it, and figure out ways that maybe the information

Mark Steadman:

: 00:15:45

starts at that RSS level, but then we have a way to be able to vet it or to say, if that

Mark Steadman:

: 00:15:51

information is false, to be able to give it a thumbs down in some kind of system.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:15:55

Be that Podchaser or the Podcast Index or whatever.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:15:58

When you've got that sort of taxonomy, when you've got that corpus of data, that you can

Mark Steadman:

: 00:16:04

then start to navigate around based on people, I think that's phenomenal.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:16:08

That's what excites me about things like the podcast person tag.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:16:11

I know exactly where you're going with that.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:16:14

I love audio drama, and the audio drama world, the actors, the performers, even though

Brett Johnson:

: 00:16:21

there are a lot of them, there are many that are used over and over, because they're

Brett Johnson:

: 00:16:25

great at it. And I've always wanted to, when I pick someone, I want to see what other

Brett Johnson:

: 00:16:31

podcasts they've been a part of.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:16:33

Have acted in, just to hear their different roles, because the good ones, if you listen

Brett Johnson:

: 00:16:40

well enough, you can kind of go, oh, I know who that is.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:16:42

They put on a different accent and you want to go, oh my gosh, she is really expanded in

Brett Johnson:

: 00:16:46

this versus what I listen to.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:16:48

I don't know if that exists. I was thinking the IMDB was supposed to try to do something

Brett Johnson:

: 00:16:55

like that, but I agree.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:16:57

If something can come up with that and whether it's maybe by genre, by category or

Brett Johnson:

: 00:17:02

something, that's even better because then it fine tunes the John Smiths of the world.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:17:07

You know that John Smith is a business entrepreneur, that's the category you want to

Brett Johnson:

: 00:17:12

follow versus John Smith musician sort of thing.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:17:15

[CROSSTALK] That would be exciting.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:17:17

That would be exciting.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:17:19

You're right.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:17:19

That's what Podchaser is trying to do.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:17:22

No one is yet completely disabused me of this notion, but I do have the sense that

Mark Steadman:

: 00:17:28

Podchaser is used more by podcasters than it is by listeners.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:17:33

I feel like that's where it is at the moment because it is aiming to essentially be the

Mark Steadman:

: 00:17:38

IMDB for podcasters.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:17:39

Right.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:17:40

Or for podcasting.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:17:42

And it's great, I've got no shame at all.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:17:45

The team are great and they're doing a great job and they really care about the space.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:17:49

They've been doing this for a while now, and yet they are a great team and I've enjoyed

Mark Steadman:

: 00:17:54

working with them.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:17:55

I think I still feel like, it's mostly the podcaster's that are using this information.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:18:03

I want to be able to see, like you were talking about, you listen to that audio drama,

Mark Steadman:

: 00:18:08

you're into this stuff and you go, oh, wow, who was that?

Mark Steadman:

: 00:18:11

Or you hear the name in the credits.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:18:12

And you know instantly, if you want to find out more about that person and other

Mark Steadman:

: 00:18:17

podcasts that they're in, you know straight away that you go to Podchaser and you put

Mark Steadman:

: 00:18:21

their name in the system.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:18:23

Or we standardize linking to people's Podchaser creator profile, and we make that a thing

Mark Steadman:

: 00:18:28

that we do in show notes.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:18:32

The more that we can do that, the more we open it up to listeners, I think then we create

Mark Steadman:

: 00:18:37

something that is immensely valuable.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:18:39

Right. The findability scale cranks up versus seeing on a Twitter feed of that artist or

Brett Johnson:

: 00:18:44

that personality, oh, hey, I'm on this podcast now, and you just accidentally saw the

Brett Johnson:

: 00:18:50

Twitter feed as one resource.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:18:52

Maybe that's what Podchaser should do and does well.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:18:55

If it's just for us, it's just for us.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:18:57

That's great. Build it and make it bigger and bigger and bigger.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:19:01

You know, it's got to start somewhere.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:19:03

Yeah, definitely.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:19:04

Next, you cover the item level tags, which the tags that relate to each episode in a

Brett Johnson:

: 00:19:09

podcast and those being the title description, the content, the subtitle and the author.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:19:15

I was surprised by what you found, that the Podcast Index, along with Pocket Casts and

Brett Johnson:

: 00:19:20

Overcast, not servicing episode level titles in search.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:19:25

That was interesting.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:19:27

Yeah, I think the problem here is largely one of scale, because there is just so much data

Mark Steadman:

: 00:19:36

to index and it takes so much time to index all of that information.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:19:41

Especially something like the Podcast Index, which is now the, I'd say possibly the second

Mark Steadman:

: 00:19:47

definitive directory of podcasts and could well be the definitive in time.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:19:56

They're a ragtag bunch of misfits.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:20:02

They're a small operation and they're an independent operation and they're funded by

Mark Steadman:

: 00:20:06

people like us who care about this and want it to continue, but that funding can only

Mark Steadman:

: 00:20:12

stretch so far and there are massive storage implications when you start to blow up the

Mark Steadman:

: 00:20:21

size of the database, 100 times plus over, because now you're storing information about

Mark Steadman:

: 00:20:28

each individual episode.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:20:30

Again, if we just imagine four million podcasts, each one of those has seven episodes.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:20:36

We know that many podcasts have many more.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:20:41

That already just becomes a huge job.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:20:45

There's all sorts of other number crunching issues with it.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:20:48

I sort of wrote the article without being sympathetic to that because, you know,

Mark Steadman:

: 00:20:56

ultimately to the podcaster and to the person searching that doesn't [INAUDIBLE] in the

Mark Steadman:

: 00:21:03

world that's not our problem.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:21:05

But it is a problem that is worth addressing.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:21:07

It's not a simple one to solve.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:21:11

I think if we can find ways to make that easier then great.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:21:15

That might just mean more of us throwing more money and helping Dave and the team at the

Mark Steadman:

: 00:21:21

Podcast Index make this stuff happen.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:21:23

Right. Well, and I think they want the feedback, too, because-.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:21:25

Yeah-

Brett Johnson:

: 00:21:26

I was looking at a few podcasts that I work with, and found it had multiple listings in

Brett Johnson:

: 00:21:32

the index-.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:21:33

Mm-hmm-

Brett Johnson:

: 00:21:34

Whether on purpose, by accident or whatever, and contacted them, they took them out.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:21:40

Yeah.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:21:40

They verified that I was the one that should have the only feed of that podcast, and

Brett Johnson:

: 00:21:44

there were two or three others there. Basically it's a network situation that that feed

Brett Johnson:

: 00:21:48

is fed into other networks and allowing it and it was there.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:21:51

I think if we as podcasters take a little time, go to the Podcast Index and take a look

Brett Johnson:

: 00:21:56

at what you have there in that library, that might help clean it up a little bit too.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:22:01

Help them do their job, because they were totally responsive.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:22:04

Within a day I got an email back saying, hey, thank you for the heads up.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:22:07

We'll clean that up, get it out there.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:22:09

I think they appreciated that.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:22:11

Yeah, definitely.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:22:12

If nothing else for the total numbers.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:22:13

Yeah.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:22:14

To be clear, the Podcast Index are one of the companies that are surfacing stuff with the

Mark Steadman:

: 00:22:20

title, but I think it's very few that are doing anything other than that.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:22:28

Yeah, and that's not to poke them in the eye at all.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:22:30

No, no, no.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:22:30

You're right. It is. I agree.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:22:32

I think they're going to become the de facto when it comes down to it.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:22:36

They're setting their selves up to be when Apple decides to, we're done with you guys.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:22:42

We're now making money and we don't have to do this with you anymore.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:22:46

Thanks for the ride, but, we're done.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:22:49

Exactly. You also found that potentially, if the content, the episode show notes is

Brett Johnson:

: 00:22:57

present, aggregators ingest this information instead of the description.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:23:01

To me, and I want your thought too, do you think that makes episode show notes a bit more

Brett Johnson:

: 00:23:04

of a priority when publishing an episode?

Mark Steadman:

: 00:23:08

First off, I'll acknowledge James really help me out with this one and clarified, because

Mark Steadman:

: 00:23:15

I get mixed up on this sometimes as well in terms of I always just default to content

Mark Steadman:

: 00:23:19

encoded.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:23:21

Which is a tag in your RSS feed for each episode that allows you to have rich show notes.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:23:27

It has its roots in blogging and it's used a lot in WordPress things as well.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:23:33

A feed item in a blog post listed in your RSS feed can have as much html as you want, and

Mark Steadman:

: 00:23:41

it's expected to be in there.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:23:43

Whereas the description tag, we're all a little bit fuzzy about whether we want html in

Mark Steadman:

: 00:23:50

there, and so not all of the apps agree about what is allowed in there or not.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:23:56

I haven't gone back and read the spec to figure out what is the correct answer.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:24:02

It doesn't really matter because none of us can agree, and none of the apps can agree in

Mark Steadman:

: 00:24:06

directories. I think, good rich show notes should always be in your episode,

Mark Steadman:

: 00:24:16

in your RSS feed, regardless of the search ability aspect of it, because it makes your

Mark Steadman:

: 00:24:24

podcast better. It's that simple.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:24:26

Even if it's just a chronological list of the things you talked about and links to those

Mark Steadman:

: 00:24:31

things, which is what a lot of podcasts do.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:24:34

You maybe have a quick description of what was in the episode of maybe a guest that's in

Mark Steadman:

: 00:24:38

there. If you're talking about books or articles or TED talks or videos or whatever, just

Mark Steadman:

: 00:24:44

list them and link them in chronological order.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:24:47

If you're doing that in your show notes, then you're doing your listener a great

Mark Steadman:

: 00:24:51

service. I think you should do that regardless of whether it makes the stuff more

Mark Steadman:

: 00:24:56

searchable or not.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:24:57

Right. I always look at it, too, if you're going to create something, how many times can

Brett Johnson:

: 00:25:01

you use it?

Mark Steadman:

: 00:25:01

Oh, yeah.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:25:02

If you're creating great episode show notes, why not turn that into the blog that has the

Brett Johnson:

: 00:25:09

player to it? You've done two things with it.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:25:12

It doesn't matter if that replicates.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:25:14

It's two different mediums.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:25:15

You're letting people read it versus listening people [CROSSTALK] would sometimes rather

Brett Johnson:

: 00:25:18

read it.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:25:20

To me, being an old school RSS guy and an old school blog guy, they are the same thing.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:25:24

They're not different things. All a podcast feed is, it's a blog feed with one extra line

Mark Steadman:

: 00:25:33

of code in it effectively that says here's an MP3 file.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:25:36

It's still a blog post that has a date, a title and a URL.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:25:39

The URL is not your MP3.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:25:42

The URL is the Web page for that episode, and the Web page for that episode should have

Mark Steadman:

: 00:25:47

your episode title, and the player and those show notes.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:25:50

It should always come from the same place.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:25:54

At the moment I'm in between a couple of different systems for one of my podcasts and I'm

Mark Steadman:

: 00:25:58

having to copy and paste show notes from one system to another.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:26:01

You should never have to do that.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:26:02

You should always be able to just put them in one place, and then they go out to your

Mark Steadman:

: 00:26:07

feed and on your website as well.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:26:10

If you're having to copy and paste notes between different platforms, then it's worth

Mark Steadman:

: 00:26:16

looking about your hosting provider or your CNS and find out whether you can make your

Mark Steadman:

: 00:26:22

life a little bit simpler.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:26:23

In reality, it's all the same thing.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:26:27

Right, exactly. I've always been an advocate of building your castle on your own property

Brett Johnson:

: 00:26:31

in your podcast website.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:26:32

Even if it's as simple as activating a, getting a Google My Business page and activating

Brett Johnson:

: 00:26:39

that page with feeds, it's something.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:26:42

It's kind of your own.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:26:43

Most hosts now have the opportunity to create a podcast page, at least through the

Brett Johnson:

: 00:26:48

hosting platform. So at least do that to control a little bit for the search aspect and

Brett Johnson:

: 00:26:54

such too. What would you suggest podcast producers consider and do with your experiment

Brett Johnson:

: 00:26:59

findings?

Mark Steadman:

: 00:27:01

That's a really interesting question.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:27:04

I don't know.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:27:05

I feel like I would like to see more done on the creator, on the podcast app side.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:27:15

I kind of felt like this with, for a time a few months ago, Apple Podcasts wasn't showing

Mark Steadman:

: 00:27:24

show notes properly.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:27:26

It wasn't showing links properly, and it was making them a garbled mess.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:27:31

People were talking about and advocating, okay, you should format your show notes in this

Mark Steadman:

: 00:27:36

way. I sort of sat there and kind of bit my lip, or bit my tongue.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:27:41

I don't think that's the right approach.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:27:45

We shouldn't, we as the podcaster, shouldn't be changing the way we're doing things when

Mark Steadman:

: 00:27:50

we're doing them correctly.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:27:52

It is incumbent on the apps to read our information that we are providing in the correct

Mark Steadman:

: 00:27:57

format. They need to read that.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:27:59

If we're providing in the correct format, it is incumbent on them.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:28:02

If that temporarily means that some people aren't getting the experience that they

Mark Steadman:

: 00:28:08

should, that is on the app developer, that is not on you as a podcaster.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:28:12

If the experience is diminished in your show notes in one app, that is the one app's

Mark Steadman:

: 00:28:19

fault, and you shouldn't be changing your methodology to appease that one app.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:28:24

Doesn't matter how big it is because it's on the app.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:28:26

That's my particular viewpoint.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:28:28

I think this is the case right now.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:28:32

It's not that we need to do anything different, because we are providing really good

Mark Steadman:

: 00:28:37

information. Let's say we're doing the really nice episode title with the name of the

Mark Steadman:

: 00:28:42

guest. We've got a nice short description of the episode.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:28:45

Then we've got our full show notes and they've got links and rich information, and we've

Mark Steadman:

: 00:28:50

got a transcript, let's say.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:28:51

We're filling in all the person tags, we're doing all of these things.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:28:55

We're donating all of this information to these systems, to these apps.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:29:00

It's their job to present that to us.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:29:03

I think the best thing we can do is just try not to game that system.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:29:07

Is try not to get into the habit of, hacking things or keyword stuffing and all these

Mark Steadman:

: 00:29:17

different ideas.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:29:19

Trying to avoid appeasing one app.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:29:22

I talked about things like the iTunes keyword tag, which is now deprecated and has been

Mark Steadman:

: 00:29:27

for some time. There's a couple of apps that surfaced this summer.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:29:33

I spoke to one of the marketing guy for one of the apps last week, and I won't call him

Mark Steadman:

: 00:29:38

out by name because it wouldn't be fair.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:29:40

He was, kind of proud that their app was one of the two that was indexing this.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:29:46

And I'm like, no, no, no, that's not the point.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:29:50

We shouldn't be providing that information anymore, and saying that podcasters can just

Mark Steadman:

: 00:29:55

put a bunch of keywords into their feed in order for their show to be found on your app.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:30:00

That ain't helping anyone.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:30:03

This is really much more for, let's understand where we are as an industry at the moment

Mark Steadman:

: 00:30:09

from the podcaster side and from the developer side.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:30:12

I think if there's ways that we can help developers say, listen, there's a few things you

Mark Steadman:

: 00:30:18

could do here, make our lives a lot easier.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:30:20

If we can get episode level search into the Podcast Index.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:30:25

I did misspeak earlier in that I said they are indexing the title because I read the

Mark Steadman:

: 00:30:29

article when I was just reading back.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:30:33

If we can get the Podcast Index and a couple of other places to start indexing some of

Mark Steadman:

: 00:30:38

that episode level data, I think that would really blow the doors off things.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:30:42

Again, to very slowly and verbosely answer a very simple question.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:30:48

I think it's on the app developers to try and lift this space now.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:30:54

Right. I think you synopsizing what that article is intended to do will help podcast

Brett Johnson:

: 00:30:59

producers look at it.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:31:01

I got the same feelings.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:31:03

Every one of them does something different.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:31:06

You cannot cater to everyone, the top 14.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:31:09

You cannot cater to those 14.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:31:11

Just do the best practices, do what you're supposed to do, do what your podcast host

Brett Johnson:

: 00:31:15

platform actually is encouraging you to do.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:31:18

You're probably going to be okay.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:31:20

That's just one piece of the puzzle anyway.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:31:24

This is [CROSSTALK] just podcast player app search.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:31:26

This is small, again, like we talked about earlier, they were not developed to be a

Brett Johnson:

: 00:31:32

search engine.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:31:33

They're a player and we're asking a lot of them.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:31:36

This leads me to my next question.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:31:38

I think one major disadvantage most podcasters have is the lack of the knowledge about

Brett Johnson:

: 00:31:43

SEO.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:31:44

And what search engines are there to do.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:31:46

We still banter around those terms, as I mentioned earlier, podcast discoverability.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:31:51

We've got to get rid of that, get rid of it, and probably should really be focused on

Brett Johnson:

: 00:31:55

the term of podcast findability.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:31:58

Based on what your podcast was about.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:32:01

Coupled with podcasters wanting everyone or everything else to do the work.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:32:06

We put it out there somebody else should take care of that.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:32:08

What advice would you give podcasters on best practices when it comes to SEO and their

Brett Johnson:

: 00:32:14

podcast? Knowing your background, what you've done, what would be some good things,

Brett Johnson:

: 00:32:19

here's three things you got to check off the list.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:32:22

You've got to do this to help yourself.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:32:25

Three things. Number one, get a really good website.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:32:29

Number two, get a really good website.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:32:31

Number three, say it with me, get a really good website.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:32:33

Yeah.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:32:35

I work with, there's a podcast [INAUDIBLE] for someone.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:32:40

I absolutely love the show.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:32:41

I've got no interest in the topic whatsoever.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:32:45

Couldn't be further from my interest.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:32:46

But I love editing them. They do such a great job.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:32:51

They are a dream to work with because, they research the episode really well.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:32:55

They give me lovely show notes.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:32:57

They have this great banter.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:32:59

It's pre-prepared. They know what they're going to talk about.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:33:01

They're really informed on their topic.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:33:03

They've got great chemistry.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:33:05

When they make a mistake they're really good at pointing it out.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:33:07

I can just edit that out and we end up with this lovely, bubbly, bright, informative,

Mark Steadman:

: 00:33:13

engaging episode. They don't have a podcast website and it drives me insane every time.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:33:19

It's something we're working on.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:33:21

I'm not just sitting there going well, it sucks to be you.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:33:25

It is something we're working on.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:33:26

The reason is, I'll just break it down a little bit.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:33:32

It's not just about having a place that you can direct people to.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:33:36

One of the big things is talking about search, going from search.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:33:40

If you've got a really interesting topic, if you're solving a listener problem, you want

Mark Steadman:

: 00:33:45

that to be the kind of question, I actually just put out a video on this yesterday.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:33:48

You want to be able to answer the kind of question that someone might Google, and to be

Mark Steadman:

: 00:33:55

able to phrase it in a way that meets a particular need that someone's Googling.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:33:59

If you have got a website that you own, that allows you to optimize it in the way you

Mark Steadman:

: 00:34:07

want to, that is linked up with your Google Podcasts account, that sets you up in such a

Mark Steadman:

: 00:34:14

great way, because then you've made your title really Googleable, really easily findable,

Mark Steadman:

: 00:34:21

you are helping that person get an answer to that question.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:34:26

They find your search results, they click on it all.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:34:28

They might just click the play button and hear the episode straight away in Google

Mark Steadman:

: 00:34:32

Podcast, or they might click through to your website and they will see the space that you

Mark Steadman:

: 00:34:37

own. They will see your text, they will see the player.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:34:39

They will see the subscription links to listen to your podcast.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:34:42

They will see the link to join your mailing list.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:34:46

If you need the modal pop up dialog box to say, I've got this mailing list, I've got this

Mark Steadman:

: 00:34:50

great offer, they can see that.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:34:52

You're not relying on something like Listen Notes or Player.FM To be indexing your episode

Mark Steadman:

: 00:34:58

for you and showing it on Google.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:34:59

This is your opportunity to own the space and it doesn't cost a lot of money.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:35:03

In order to do this, you can run it on Podpay, you can do a simple WordPress site, but

Mark Steadman:

: 00:35:09

getting the ability for you to own that space and to be able to optimize.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:35:16

The last point of this is, tangential to all of this is, each episode that you create is

Mark Steadman:

: 00:35:23

part of your body of work.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:35:25

It's not just this is the thing we've put out this week.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:35:28

We go through the cycle.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:35:29

We put out out Tweet.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:35:31

We do our Instagram post.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:35:33

We put it on Facebook and LinkedIn, and then onto the next one.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:35:37

That's so often how we think about it because we're stuck in that cycle.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:35:41

With each episode, you're building a body of work.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:35:43

If you don't have a website where every episode has its own Web page with the title, the

Mark Steadman:

: 00:35:50

player and full rich show notes describing the episode and potentially the full

Mark Steadman:

: 00:35:54

transcript. If you don't have that for each individual episode, then yeah, your stuff is

Mark Steadman:

: 00:36:00

just going to disappear into the ether.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:36:02

Having a website, crucially with each episode having its own web page, that preserves

Mark Steadman:

: 00:36:11

your work in a way that would be so much harder otherwise, because all of that good stuff

Mark Steadman:

: 00:36:18

that you've written, all of those show notes, that transcript, it's all being gobbled up

Mark Steadman:

: 00:36:22

by Google and it's loving it and it's eating it up and it's indexing it.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:36:25

Again, it's going to space you own.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:36:28

It comes down to having a good website.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:36:33

Right. I de-mythed it in my own mind about what Google is to us in regards to well, think

Brett Johnson:

: 00:36:40

about how you use Google.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:36:41

You're asking it a question.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:36:44

Yeah.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:36:45

And you want Google to deliver you the best options it can find.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:36:50

Therefore, that's the game we play.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:36:53

Be one of those options.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:36:54

Be one of those options. Be the best that you can, knowing again, lots of things are

Brett Johnson:

: 00:36:59

against you to a certain degree.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:37:01

Algorithm, how long you've been there, how you rank in regards to an authority figure and

Brett Johnson:

: 00:37:05

such. But, you're there.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:37:07

Yes.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:37:08

You may be page five, but you're there.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:37:11

Yes.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:37:11

Potentially to grow and then build upon that SEO.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:37:14

There are a lot of people that are just really good at SEO, find them.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:37:20

Let them help you out, because there are little tricks to this that you just keep it in

Brett Johnson:

: 00:37:24

your workflow. It's going to help you in the long run.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:37:28

I just [CROSSTALK] see that.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:37:29

It's a little bit of work, but it works.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:37:33

It works.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:37:34

I think it's also, it's a habit you build up as well, like a muscle that you build up, I

Mark Steadman:

: 00:37:38

should say. The title is so important and it's something I fall down on a lot.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:37:44

There are really simple free tools that will help you make your title better.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:37:51

They will analyze the words in your title and say, you know, actually if you use this

Mark Steadman:

: 00:37:54

kind of language, if you put a personalized kind of word in here, it makes us connect

Mark Steadman:

: 00:37:59

with it more. If you use a brand, if you use certain words, caution or stop words, they

Mark Steadman:

: 00:38:05

make us have emotional reactions when they read this article.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:38:08

Doesn't necessarily mean we're talking about clickbait here, but we are making the title

Mark Steadman:

: 00:38:12

as enticing as possible and as compelling as possible, and to set up a bit of tension and

Mark Steadman:

: 00:38:17

suspense of, oh, I've got to know what, setting up an expectation.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:38:21

I've got to know what is in this.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:38:23

You can do that stuff actually quite easily and for free.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:38:27

If you speak someone like [INAUDIBLE], I think he's one of these people who's a believer.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:38:32

It's one of the most important things you can do for each episode.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:38:37

Is get that title absolutely bang on, because that's the most important thing that crops

Mark Steadman:

: 00:38:42

up in search.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:38:44

Yeah, exactly.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:38:45

Talk about, more projects or experiments coming up as we finish out the episode?

Mark Steadman:

: 00:38:51

Projects certainly.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:38:53

I'm having a lot of fun at the moment, trying to make videos and write articles that are

Mark Steadman:

: 00:38:57

going back to the stuff you and your listeners already know about, but going back from

Mark Steadman:

: 00:39:02

first principles of podcasting all the way up to a much more advanced stuff.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:39:08

I'm doing videos every week over at podcode.tv.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:39:12

There's written articles, podcast episodes as well.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:39:15

There's the newsletter where I try and disseminate the podcast news through my particular

Mark Steadman:

: 00:39:22

viewpoint. If you're interested, if I have talked your ear off and you want to hear more

Mark Steadman:

: 00:39:28

of what I've got to say, podcode.tv is where you can find out some of that.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:39:33

Super, and I'll remind everyone too listening, that I'll have all the connections and the

Brett Johnson:

: 00:39:38

links and his websites and such in the podcast show notes so you don't have to hear a

Brett Johnson:

: 00:39:41

litany of what did he say?

Brett Johnson:

: 00:39:43

How do you write that now? Which always drives me insane, that's a great way to end an

Brett Johnson:

: 00:39:47

episode. [CROSSTALK] Links are in the show notes we'll go that way.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:39:52

Thank you for spending this time with me talking about this.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:39:55

This has been enlightening for me, even me reading your article numerous times and

Brett Johnson:

: 00:39:59

spending a lot of time on it.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:40:00

It still gives me some insight on why you did it, and what you thought from the results

Brett Johnson:

: 00:40:05

as well, too. You come from a different angle.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:40:08

Definitely more of the tech piece of this and the back end of how everything is built.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:40:13

I think that's something we need to know.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:40:14

We need to understand where things come from and why they exist the way they do.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:40:19

Then we can do better with them.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:40:21

And that's great. I really appreciate your insight and your time this morning Mark.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:40:24

That was absolutely lovely to talk to you.

Mark Steadman:

: 00:40:26

Thank you, Brett.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:40:33

My thanks again to Mark for spending a little bit of time with me talking about his

Brett Johnson:

: 00:40:37

experiment. I hope you got as much out of it as I did.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:40:41

Again, I encourage you to read the full article if you haven't done so already.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:40:45

It's worth the 10-15 minutes to read it.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:40:47

If you're looking for more tailored help on your podcast, then be sure to connect with

Brett Johnson:

: 00:40:52

our dedicated team of podcast professionals.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:40:54

We'll help your business create a podcast from planning and launching to editing,

Brett Johnson:

: 00:40:58

presentation skills, promotion and monetization if it's in the game plan.

Brett Johnson:

: 00:41:03

Interested in speaking with one of our professionals, we put together a questionnaire to

Brett Johnson:

: 00:41:08

quickly fill out. This is going to help us help you prior to our first information

Brett Johnson:

: 00:41:12

meeting, which you can schedule when you complete the questionnaire.